Evolution -or- Creation

[Atrus]

Been thinking about some of what's been written in this forum and looking for the most efficient way to separate the wheat from the chaff. For me personally when it comes to life's larger mysteries I ask a lot of questions. Or, I suggest possibilities without pushing my belief system on the reader so that hopefully their response is honest and without influence. When I do express what I believe to be a truth I always try to preface or end by noting that this is only my view, and I encourage others to express their views.

Two subjects I enjoy discussion on are science and religion. Unlike most folks I don't see a problem with the two because in my belief system you simply can't have one without the other. What I find most interesting are the hard core believers from either camp who push their beliefs as if they have some special understanding. Who, come across as having certain knowledge or truth. Most I ignore, but some could be harmful to the search for truth and understanding. Question those who think they've got all the answers because more often than not you'll find they have no better understanding of the true nature of things than anyone else.

So, how do I resolve the matter. Been thinking about this for the past few days and it was right in front of me all along. Use something I worked with most of my life and see if it can shed any light on the great mysteries. The LAW. Evolution has science on its side, and Creation has religion on its side. That is if your taking sides. Evolution has all the sciences, and those who promote this side argue that they have solid verifiable scientific and forensic evidence of evolution. On the other side Creationists have... the memories of many men written down over many years about an event long ago. And somewhere (can't recall at the moment) I've heard they have a museum with art of a Cowboy riding a Dinosaur.

The law says PROVE it. Evolutionists have the sciences, carbon dating, fossils, etc., I'll spare everyone a Google search cut-n-paste novella of everything, but it's there for anyone who wishes to look. Creationists have Noah's Ark, the Ten Commandments, the Ark of the Covenant, the Crown of Thorns, the Spear, the Cross itself, the Shroud of Turin, and the word of God written by many authors over time and put together as the Bible. But, wait... all they really have is the Shroud which doesn't hold up under carbon dating. The rest remains to be proven.

The truth of science and religion is difficult because the search for answers to these mysteries is a perpetual work in progress... in my belief system when it comes to these subjects the only thing we can say for sure that we know for certain - is that we don't know. But, that's just my view and I'd like to hear some others. If ya think you've got the answers I'd sure like to hear you defend your side.

Proof - no speculation or wishful thinking - anything but proof is just faith.

~A

[Titan]

Pencil me in for Evolution.

[weaver]

I am like you Atrus. I have no qualms saying that both Science and Religion must exist, even co-exist. If someone wants to argue that Religion is something hokey and made up, I will argue that mother-nature has programmed us for spiritual belief. In the very least, it is critical for our social and internal well being. At the most, I will argue that spirituality and a belief in the duality of the Universe is critical to our ability to survive this planet and expand our race beyond it. If there also happens to be TRUTH beyond and behind our spirituality, well - hell - that's a giant perk!

Evolution in schools is a no brainer. We teach the Theory of Gravity. Theory of Relativity. Both are just theories... but have been tested time and time again in the labs of science. Even Particle/String Theory is taught in our Universities and this has far less science and more conflict behind it - but we know ENOUGH of it is true to warrant teaching and exploration.

Evolution is a Theory. Just as all of the above. And it has been tested time and time again and proven right in every case. The first time that it is proven wrong, the Theory will be adjusted to fit the new causal facts.

Creationism isn't a 'Theory'. It may be a 'theory' with a lower T. We don't need to teach those. Intelligent Design is just lame. Let's just avoid this PC crapfest. Creationism can be taught in your home, in your church. It does not mesh with other major religions of the world. If you want a fundamentals of religions or Christianity in your school, that is fine - that is an appropriate place for it.

Evolution in schools - no question about it. They take it out of MY school district.. well.. I am already on the PTA board, so I will have already fought and lost. I'll just pack up my tax-base and my house and move somewhere civilized.

[Tracer]

Hmmm ...only one Christian around here ..lol

There is no conflict . In actuality , science has never proved anything concerning evolution. Scientist keep coming up with facts that contradict evolution as far as MAN , goes and point more and more to Creationism . When I support Creationism , lets be clear , I am only talking about "MAN" , not animals or plants .Scientist , still wrestle with the question ; "Where did the first plant come from "? , let alone the first living organism . After all , how do you get living creatures from water and rock?. Animals are free to adapt all they want and the Bible does not contradict that.The Bible simply say's God made all the animals , however ,Man is the only living organism , God , say's He created in His image . As far as science and the Bible goes , Christians welcome all the work in this direction mankind can muster . It has only solidified our beliefs not hurt them .My posts will not be over 15 lines in the future , hoping they will not be refered to as dietribe , as some have done .

[weaver]

Tracer. You are looking at the side of a red brick building and claiming it is blue and that there is no evidence that it is, in fact, made of red ochre.

Post as long as you want. But please - Don't go away mad. Just go away if you must.



Love to get your opinion on this thread

Please read the following general and accepted definition of Scientific Theory.
Unfortunately, it's impossible to know that a scientific theory is right. The theory may agree beautifully with all the evidence - today. But science isn't like mathematics. There can be no guarantee about what evidence we will discover tomorrow.

So, we go for the next best thing, which is proving theories wrong. That's easy. You just find some evidence that contradicts what the theory says. The theory is then falsified and stays that way.

So, a scientific theory is one which can in principle be falsified. The theory has to make strong statements about evidence. If the statements aren't strong, then the theory fits any evidence, and is unfalsifiable. That's bad.

It's bad for three very practical reasons. First, a theory which can't make predictions is a dead end. Second, it would be useless. Oil companies are very pleased that geologists can predict where to drill for oil. And third, if we have two rival theories, we want to use evidence to choose between them. If they are unfalsifiable, then evidence doesn't do that for us.

[Tracer]

I will try to make my point clearer .The Bible and Evolution do not contradict each other , accept for 2 things . The origins of life , ie : "Plants and Animals forming themselves from rock and water " , and God creating "MAN" , in his own imge . There is absolutely no proof to contradict iether . So there is no argument here . I am fine with that . This is just my belief , and no attempt is made to push it on anyone . I am just stating my belief and I respect the beleifs of others here as well .Animals evolving or , "Adapting" as I call it is all good and natural and believable . Just not "Man" . Wow , look at my short reply .

[weaver]

There is no proof AGAINST or FOR God "Creating man in his own image" other then a book that says it is so.

I can write a book saying that Tracer was created in MY Image.. but that doesn't have any effect on the truth.

If I can't PROVE empirically my point.. then I have no truth.

[L-veotz]

That's why people should just live and not worry so much about the material. Whatever helps you, whoever. Although people say that there is scientific proof that evolution is, in fact, truth...(or parts of it) how can they prove it? by dating things? How do we know the exact way that carbon decomposes? Does anyone really have anything that is without any shred of doubt truly millions of years old? I am not going to concretely believe in something just because it is accepted as fact and empirically proven by people who can't explain to me how they know something is millions of years old.

People make mistakes, that's why we should all just live life without worrying too much over all of the mundane things that'll bring us down.

proof isn't always necessary

[weaver]

Carbon Dating is verifiable in a number of ways.

First - by watching and measuring for a year. What % of carbon 14 decomposed to its more stable carbon 12 form?

Then - by creating a hypothesis of what the carbon aging should be and compare it against OTHER more (short term) reliable means like tree ring dating.

We are pretty confident on C14 dating back 180,000+ years.

For longer term dates, we drop to Uranium/Cesium 138 dating which reliably gives us dates 1+B years.

Note: We use Cesium 138 for our 'atomic clocks' that keep the worlds most delicate systems in sync. We trust them.

[L-veotz]

well....how do you know for sure? (stop being so scientifically correct...meanie)

[weaver]

OH... so sorry V!

[Tracer]

The difference between the Bible and the book you would write Weaver would be that the Bible is a collection of thousands of pieces of original manuscript dating over 4000 years that never contradict themselves and that have thousands of accurate geological evidences backing up its writings . All of mans best scientists and archeologist have not been able to disprove one fact mentioned anywhere in the Bible. Oh they will twist it's meanings to make it seem silly and use word games to belittle its believers but in the end....It stands up to every scientific test man can muster against it .

Only God can accurately foretell the future and every prophecy has proven true .

Prophecy is a proof of divine revelation! If One, in the Bible, speaking and claiming to be God, can make prophecies and tell what is going to happen in the future to nations, to cities, to empires, then if it actually happens in every case, and without a miss, you’ll know that was a real God speaking.

But, if it were some person writing this, some human mortal writing in ignorance, groping in superstition, making great boasts, and claiming that he could foretell what was going to happen to proud cities, to nations, to great empires, and then it never happens, you know that that man was merely writing make-believe out of his own imagination.

Yes, prophecy is a proof of God, a proof of the divine revelation of the Bible. Prophecy is a taunting challenge that the skeptic dares not accept! History shows human civilization started with the development of a few single cities --Babylon, Nineveh and others. These city-states developed into the earliest nations --Assyria, Egypt, Israel, Phoenicia, Chaldea, etc. Then, about the 7th century B.C., the firstempire over nations was formed by the ancient king Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon -- the Chaldean Empire. About 604-585 B.C. the Chaldean armies invaded and took captive the Jews in the land of Judea. Among these Jewish captives, removed from their land and deported to Babylon and Chaldea, was a very brilliant Jewish lad named Daniel.

All these things written thousands of years ago , originally on papyrus paper have been scientifically proven true by every test of man...History has documented them all to be totally accurate . The cities locations, the kings who reigned over them....all proven by archeological finds. History and The future in one book . Always proving iself accurate . Rebirth of Isreal after 1700 years just for one example.....I challenge anyone to find one statement in the Bible concerning any geograghical location to be false or innacurate ...This cannot be swept under the rug or ignored.

How did all these different men who were inspired to write this amazing book living thousands of years apart know where all these cites were and what kings were their rulers ? By the way it is the only book in existance that is over 2000 years old and still the #1 Seller world wide . Now that is a a book !

--- Oops space is up for me ...Sorry
I hope this does not seem like dietribe. I really try to be sincere with my reply and I'm not out to convert anyone ..... I will only do my best to defend the Bibles truth with facts as best I can find them ! I really don't believe , however anything I type here will satisfy anyone who doesn't believe in God and His Holy Book , The Bible ...Thanks for reading !

[Atrus]

Cities, people, places, events, occurrences throughout history all can be verified through the writings of historians and clerics. What all this writing can't verify is the word of God. Remember, this post asks for PROOF, not prophecy.

As well, the statement "God and His Holy Book , The Bible" needs some attention. Was the Bible actually written by God? Let's get back to reality for a moment. The comment was made "All of mans best scientists and archaeologist have not been able to disprove one fact mentioned anywhere in the Bible." Since proof is the point of this thread then it must be noted here that if science cannot disprove one fact of the Bible, then it must also hold true that the Bible cannot prove one word of God.

"In actuality , science has never proved anything concerning evolution." On the other hand, religion has never proven anything concerning creation.

"...proof isn't always necessary." Proof isn't always possible, so in our search for truth perhaps we sometimes mistake the strength of our faith as truth. For some this is enough, and if they're happy and at peace then who is to say they are wrong. For others, the truth burns like a distant flame that must be reached. If their struggle for understanding brings them peace then who is to say they are wrong.

This could go on and on... it boils down to a question of faith -- and that means faith on both sides of the argument. Because while proof is illusive, faith is something we have the ability to generate in unlimited quantities.

Let's be mindful not to mistake our personal faith as truth for all.

~A