What happened to America?

[Smitty]

This is not really a topic of discussion, but more of a complaint rather than an "I agree..." or "I disagree..." topic. Feel free to post your comments though, as I may be off on one hell of a rant tonight.

Let's get this crap started son!

As a personal history nerd, I chose to ask the 1 simple question that nobody ever bothered to ask, or maybe they asked it and no one gave them an answer, but what the hell happened to the America that the revolutionaries founded? Is it no longer here? Or was it drowned out by greed and cowardice? I just don't get it anymore! Nobody is elected on the basis of: Who would better represent the people, but rather: Who can raise the most amount of money for their campaign. After the revolutionary war, the presidents were chosen based on the peoples' choice. I don't ever remember reading or learning about this "Electoral College" that we see in todays Government practice. This "Electoral College" seems to be the 'middle man' between the PEOPLE and their VOTE! Maybe I'm wrong here, but seriously... do I really need to have someone else choose for me? No, I think I can make a sound decision on my own who I wish to represent me.

Another thing that consumes me in a fire of hate and outrage is the Democratic party. As the time comes closer towards the end of Bush's presidency, all I see aorund me is the filthy Democratic party smiling at the public through teeth as black as coal and lies to boot. I have a strong disgust towards the Democratic party, as I always have even before the Clinton asshat took the office. Everyone hails Clinton as a savior because he almost chopped the National Deficit in half. Want to know how he did it? Look to your statistics for answers. Look at the current military for answers. Look at your businesses for answers. The answers are there, just ask the questions. The military - He cut monthly pay for military men and women as well as decrease the size of the military greatly. Sorry ladies and gentlemen, but your armed forces are needed. They open up jobs for those who are fit enough, yet can't seem to find a job in the civillian sector. Military is a good start for those who need a kick to the ass as far as life is concerned, so leave the military alone. Prior to Clinton we had a pretty massive military, now we have but a mere force. A force to be reckoned with,but still a much smaller force than we had before. You also have to stop and think about the men and women who are part of the baby boom era. They are getting close to retiring, and when the baby boomers retire, we will be even shorter as far as overall manpower is concerned. And finally businesses. Anyone ever wonder why the Union members hate democrats? I don't get it either, maybe I should ask one of these days. I know when someone approaches me, they ask about my past. Although 99% of the people I work around (I'm non-union, I'm a contractor that keeps maintenance based machinery up and running) know about my past and my pro-Repulican mindset, they appologize for Bush's War, but then when I ask them who they think will win the presidency in 2008 they say "Well, I hope to God Barrak or Hillary don't!", that either says 1 of 2 things:

1.> They are prejudice against black and women. Prejudism in the workplace is illegal here, as it is almost all across the United States. And most people don't mind who they work with as long as the person(s) they work with are level headed and get the job done.

2.> The Democratic party did something to really heat their mood and opinion on their party. And when I mean that, I mean in a negative sense.

I can understand that people want this war to end, but you can't just go over to a country, kick the hell out of them, and expect their own people (who are already heavily divided) to hold their own territory. It just isn't the right thing to do. Am I saying give the country money to rebuild? No. Am I saying it's ok to annihilate corruption and help them by bringing a solid military, police force, medical facilities, and education system back to them? Absolutely. Don't think Iraq was hurting before the war? Psh, get real. Their entire police force was corrupt, the only military they had was a ragtag militia, and their education system was jacked as well as their hospitals. I asked a couple Afghanistan war vets the same question "Was it like that in Afghanistan?" and behold the answer was the same. I've asked Iraqi civillians that question during my tour and they said the only difference between now and then was that there were more buildings standing back then than there are now. That's pathetic. And it's saddening to hear that. But still, do you honestly think that the Democratic party is going to follow through with everything they say they will? Yeah right. Barrak Obama (Obama bin Laden) has already made a few nasty comments about America's Military. Go look for yourselves. And Hillary "Hellhound" Clinton is just a greedy slime bag. Who the hell wants Bill Clinton living in the same White House he committed adultry in? I guess the decision is up to the 'Electoral College' to decide that seeings that they will be the last people to cast their votes in the peoples' ballots. I feel that the America that the revolutionaries so long ago fought for no longer exists. It was buried somewhere in the pages of time. Kind of like Pompei, except America was buried by something much more destructive and that's ignorance, greed, and wrecklessness. In this case, the whole Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights, etc. should be burned, the 13 stripes should be wiped off the flag and the 50 stars should be replaced with 1 massive star. That's what I feel. Maybe others feel the same way... and maybe others feel opposite. If Americans (whether born or immigrated) don't pull their heads from their rear ends, we're all going to suffer in the end.

Maybe another Civil War in this country is overdue. A Civil War that isn't fought over slavery, religion, etc. But to put a check on our government to tell them "Hey, we didn't vote for you, so stop pushing us around!"

"No man or woman should fear their government, for those men and women are what built it."

[cpnichol]

I like my Government, business, religion and science to be separate from each other. A Government too close to business (as I think the US is and to a lesser extent the UK) will pass laws to benefit business, but not necessarily the people who voted for them and lead to corruption.

Religion and Government can lead to decisions based on what a politician believes that God would want him to do, but not necessarily the people who voted for them. Theocracies really don't seem like nice places to live.

Business can corrupt the impartiality of scientific experiments. Studies have shown that when a scientist, experiment or scientific organisation is heavily funded by a certain business, the experiments results are more favourable to that business.

This is just what I think makes for the best kind of Government, or one that at least does what it is supposed to; represent the people who voted for them.

As far your deficit goes, if you want to reduce it someone is going to feel it, it's just a question of deciding who. At least Clinton made a decision unlike George W. who has gone for the reckless financial policy of taxing less and spending more.

[weaver]

Wow - I really want to weigh in here, but I need more time to do so! Perhaps later today.

[Smitty]

But I feel that if ANYONE should feel a cut in pay or manpower, it should be Congressmen and women. Or maybe school superintendents! All these people put together probably gross about 1.5 - 2.5 million dollars. Do you really need that many people sitting on their butts at once?
Those are the people that should get the paycuts! But NOT the only thing that's used in defense of your own people, country, and beliefs... I mean COME ON! The United States needs a strong(er) military. Again though, maybe it's greed. I sure the hell don't think (and from personal experience) that a man or woman willing to take a bullet for his God, country, and people should make a meek $500/bi weekly (before taxes). I know high school kids working at McDonald's made more than a Private / Private First Class in the military. That's insane! Figure it up, minimum wage around here is approximately $7.50/HR - multiply that by part time... lets say 29-35 hours (because that's what most part timers work) you end up with anywhere between 435-525 dollars every 2 weeks (before taxes). Most people seem to have this idea that just because we're service me and women that we get a tax break... psh yeah right... tax break my ass...

[Atrus]

Come on Smitty, don't hold back - let us know what you really think. LoL.

I've often said that I'm not a Democrat or a Republican, I am an American. Don't suck up to either and expect both to get the job done when in power. Needless to say that in my lifetime of voting I have yet to be impressed with any administration after giving my vote. Given your thoughts on the Dem's and their misbehavior I'm curious as to any Republican views on that party given the recent quote from a manuscript to be published in 2008, by Scott McClellan.

According to McClellan, Bush and his entire crew played the mushroom cloud card to take us to war, Wilson reported that Iraq got no Yellow Cake from Africa and made the report. This resulted in the outing of a CIA agent, as well as according McClellan, the following cover up involving McClellan, the President's Chief of Staff, Karl Rove, Cheney, and yes the President. This according to the administrations press secretary - who also says that he was issued prepared statements for the press by the White House that he knew were untrue. And like every other faithful Republican of the time he questioned nothing and marched happily in lock step along with all the other neocon's giving Lord Bush all that he asked for. So, poor ole' Scooter Libby gets tagged as the scapgoat for all, not for the outing but for lying about it. Scooter gets the guilty verdict, then before he's about to begin serving his time - Bush to the rescue and commutes the sentence. All I can think of at the moment is that they must not have left enough cookies in the jar for McClellan when he left, so he's now looking for payback.

I am curious to know how any of the Republicans here feel about this most recent development. I'm sure some will dust off the Wilson is a liar stick, but when someone with the credibility of McClellan speaks out it cannot be so easily ignored. Not now, not after so much has been sacrificed by so many. Where did our hunger, our desire for truth go. Have we all bought into the Bush Amnesia sale?

What if that all McClellan says is true? The lies by the administration, the cover up, the treasonous act of outing a CIA agent, and using the power of the office to neutralize the powers of the Judiciary. We know how the Rep's feel about the Dem's, but after 7 years of Bushism how do you Rep's feel about your own party. Don't hold back - let us know what you really think?

Don't hate all Dem's because of the FAR left's view of things. The far left and the far right BOTH come up a few cans short of having a six-pack, it's just too bad they get so much press. Reality exists somewhere in the middle where reasonable people can subscribe to either ideology and still find common ground that serves the interests of all. I've watched for years now as the division of our country has taken place. What once was a healthy and essential element of democracy, the idea of difference in opinions has morphed into some kind of twisted contest for power and domination. Not what our founding Father's intended - not what WE should allow to continue.

Okay Republicans, take a deep breath... think about the past 7 years... and let's hear from you faithful about how well you think your party has done while at the helm of our mighty ship.

~A

[weaver]

I am happy to see that you are such a fervent supporter of your nation. Patriotism seems like a trait that has less accord with people these days. Welcome to the team!

However -

I have to correct a few items in your statement. I hear misquotes and untruths all of the time on the Left.. and on the Right as well. Lets all be honest with ourselves and then disagree on the groundings of our personal philosophies and not those of untruths. This is the only way for us to continue the responsible leadership of our country, to take the gift hard won by our founders and to continue it in perpetuity.

We are not a democracy. We are a Republic. More specific, a Federal Republic what is constitution based with a strong democratic tradition. What does that mean?

This means that we are a federation of states with a republican form of govt. This is to say, we do not have a monarch as a head of state and each state has a degree of autonomy that cannot be revoked by the central state. We have democratic traditions in so much that we have a representative govt. Our Electoral System was established in the 2nd article of the constitution .. and though modified a bit to allow for more transparency.. we have never had direct voting. Nor will we likely, since that would require a super majority decision by the Senate and Congress (75%).

Clinton and Deficit reduction- the truth.
First - Clinton did cut the Govt by quite a bit. With the major cuts in welfare, we had a good restriction in the govt. And we had substantial base closings that resulted in savings. However - the majority of the deficit reduction came from robust growth in the US Economy. We didn't see the deficit shrink in $$ but instead it shrunk as a percent of the total economy. For the 8 years of Clinton in office, the US Economy (GDP) grew by 26%. The deficit remains the same in real dollars.. but looks like it was cut by 1/4 because of that phenomenal growth. This growth started under Bush Senior -- but I am not going to pop the Clinton bubble over this. I am happy for what happened.

Clinton DID cut over-all military spending by 9% but not by cutting paychecks. In fact, the largest (to that date) increases in salary for enlisted and officers occurred under Bill. Savings were in long term research projects, base closings, removal of forces from Korea, Japan, Guam, and Germany.

ok - so enough Democrat defense.

They have played an unusual degree of politics in the face of war and conflicts. I find it reprehensible.

As to the reasons for war and the flag, etc etc as Atrus mentioned. Sure - I find their behavior reprehensible as well. HOWEVER - I wish that our leaders had the confidence to tell us the truth - admit the public strategy behind our actions versus concocting lies and making those of us interested in learning the truth to have to do so much digging. On the other hand, I happen to agree.. that telling the truth will get us no where since most American's are so UNinterested in political realities that a simple slogan is all that will work to get us to do what needs to be completed.

[Serov]

right on track smitty, where did this electoral college nonsense come from? it seems that the popular vote does not even matter anymore, its just up to a select few to decide.


the real ideology is right in the middle of both "parties" (I would say brainwashed masses) where people can both hold their own views and respect the other side as well. all too often it seems that America is really 2 people groups that rabidly hate one another (thats what talk shows and debates lead me to believe).

just an idea - start from scratch. the entire system sucks at the moment, so much bitterness and strife over the tiniest of details (congress, not the people). it has become a power struggle not a "nation for the people".

[weaver]

Serov - did you NOT read my post?

We have NEVER had a direct vote.

[Serov]

Originally Posted by weaver

Serov - did you NOT read my post?

We have NEVER had a direct vote.

I guess that is my way of saying we are led to believe that we do, but we do not. misled is a word for it.

[weaver]

Really? Misled? By who?

Didn't you pay attention in school? I sure did.

Govt. educated me in the ways of civil law in highschool and elementary. The fact that so many people don't care .. or don't know enough yet to care.. is not someone elses fault.

Want to help yourself? For Free? Go to WIKI.
Federal government of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[ShiftyDevil]

Not to be totally cynical and jaded, but in general, the average American does not educate themselves well enough to make an informed, logical and intelligent vote. Until that happens a direct vote is a bad idea anyway.

Our country is as jacked up as it is, because of us. It's our (the average citizen) fault, we haven't taken the responsibility like we should have and demanding credibility from our representatives.

I would also like to say, because I believe this word has been beaten and abused. And I think the man that is closest to the mark of its true feeling, or at lest the truest I've ever heard is Mark Twain.

"Each man must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, which course is patriotic and which isn't. You cannot shirk this and be a man."

A patriot is not just a man or woman who whole heartedly supports his government, a patriot is a man or woman who takes it upon themselves to do what is best for their fellow countrymen, despite what the government says. They challenge and question their leaders, I think in recent days we have confused patriotism with nationalism.