Forum Home > Non-Gaming > Real Politik > Alternative Voting - UK Referendum
[1]
Posted Reply
Alternative Voting - UK Referendum
Posted: Apr 22, 2011, 18:08:35
Quoted Reply
So we're going to be having a referendum in the UK on whether we change our voting system from first past the post to alternative voting.

This will be only the second referendum in the history of the UK and our first ever opportunity to directly vote for a change in how our political system works. It might not be a subject that people find interesting, but it is an important and historic moment.

Alternative voting simply means that you rank the candidates in order of preference. If one candidate gets more than 50% of the vote they win, if not, the candidate with the least votes is eliminated. When a candidate is eliminated the second choice of the people who voted for them is counted towards the remaining candidates and if one candidate gets over 50%, they win. If no one has 50% the candidate with the lowest number of votes is eliminated and the second choice of the people who voted for them have their second choice votes attributed to the remaining candidates. Etc.

Or as I like to think of it "if candidates from these parties were trapped in a burning building, in which order would you rescue them?".

I was generally thinking I'd vote yes, simply because it gives me greater expression at the polling booth. What has turned my probably voting yes into definitely yes is the utterly moronic and insulting vote no campaign.

There are some perfectly valid reasons for voting yes or no, the no campaign manages to respond to none of the reasons why you should vote yes and deftly avoids any of the decent reasons to vote no. So here is my summary of the vote no campaign arguments:

1. It costs money. Poster campaigns have shown a soldier with "our soldiers need body armour, not an alternative voting system" and a baby with "this baby needs an intensive care ward, not an alternative voting system". A crass over simplification presenting people with an entirely fictitious either/or choice. If this were in fact the case then presumably the soldier and the baby will go on to contest a final to decide who gets the money.

2. "The second or third best can win under AV". Rather depends on how you define "best". Say 10000 vote for party A, 9000 for party B, 8000 for party C, 7000 for party D, as things stand party A wins. But lets imagine that the people who voted for B,C and D all absolutely hated party A. That means a party that 70% of voters in that area hate wins, that doesn't quite sound like best to me. Admittedly a theoretical example, but it shows that the majority of people voting don't always get their views represented.

3. "Under our present system the one who comes first is always the winner". They provide a helpful diagram of a ballot paper with one x on it and then a bigger pile of papers with "WINNER!" over it. Starting to get a little condescending now. This is the same point as no. 2.

4. AV is unpopular. "AV is not a fair system. That's why only 3 countries in the world use it, Fiji, Australia and Papua New Guinea. And they don't even like it". No details on why it's unfair and the unpopular claim is supported by a survey from Australia that says 6 out of 10 people don't like it. There was a time when democracy was in a minority as a system for choosing government, according to their logic this would have made changing to democracy bad. Lots of countries have dictators, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

5. It takes more than a sentence to explain. This is where it gets insulting, to me this, and listening to various no campaigners, just sounds like "you are all too stupid to understand AV". Because you are all so monumentally thick, this is a bad idea.

6. "The winner should be the one that comes first". Comes with a helpful picture of a sprint race pointing to guy who came in 3rd with the caption "The winner under AV". Points number 2 and 3 again, also the system that decides which is the fastest horse may not be the best system for expressing the political preferences of voters.

7. Nick Clegg is a lying dick. No they didn't say it like that but that is the basic argument. They are just cashing in on Nick Clegg being really unpopular as he is the main reason we are having this referendum. So man thinks good idea is good, but I think that man is a dick, therefore his idea is automatically bad? No, that's another stupid argument. Even if I accept that logic I think David Cameron is a lying dick too and he wants me to vote no, just how do I choose which lying dick to listen to?

It's an important vote, I'm just so disappointed that the idiots in charge of the no campaign have done such an awful job.

*edit* Almost forgot, the last thing on the vote no leaflet is "The only vote that would count under AV would be Nick Clegg's". Yes, because apparently some subsection of the AV voting rules give all the votes to one man, no wait, that's entirely made up.
Last Edited: Apr 22, 2011, 18:19:22
Re: Alternative Voting - UK Referendum
Posted: Apr 22, 2011, 23:51:26
Quoted Reply
The reason I might be interested in something like this over here across the pond is we really get no say on who the candidates are going to be. There is going to be a hand picked Dem and Rep by their party's caucus that we the voters really have no say in. They also want us to "declare" party as well. I want to vote for the best person for the job that will help America and do things as closely as I like and what benefits my family. Unfortunately, I am most often forced to vote for the lesser of 2 evils. It also is starting to feel like an American Idol competition instead of a serious election....at least for president. Local races seem to degenerate into campaigns about who did the least bad things/votes. People are either stuck with voting for the Dems or Reps unless they want to throw their vote away in protest by voting for one of the sacrificial lambs the obscure parties put up.

The people that are doing the "but the babies are starving" campaigns against that referendum....I would bet a dime on a dollar that their roots/support is the entrenched power/parties.....I bet this kind of thing scares the hell out of them as the public will get more of a voice.
Re: Alternative Voting - UK Referendum
Posted: Apr 23, 2011, 10:07:00
Quoted Reply
For the most part the political parties are supporting whichever option suits them best, so the Liberal Democrats and some smaller parties are for change, the Conservatives are against the changes. The only exception seems to be the Labour party, which appears to be allowing their MPs to support whatever they like, so you had the rather odd spectacle of the Labour leader with the Liberal leader supporting the yes campaign and then the leader of the Conservatives and a senior left wing Labour guy campaigning for the no campaign.

It's not difficult to see why the Liberals want a change in the system. This is how many seats the 3 main parties won at the last election:

Conservatives - 307
Labour - 258
Liberal Democrats - 57

This is what percentage of the overall votes they got:

Conservatives - 36%
Labour - 29%
Liberal Democrats - 23%

So that's almost a quarter of the votes for the Liberals and under 10% of seats. Not that AV would necessarily give them 23% of the seats but it will probably narrow the gap between percentage of votes and number of seats.

Another argument against AV is that it will result in more coalition governments, I saw one Conservative MP last night say that AV will result in a coalition government "every time". That's just a complete lie. If you look at Australia they have had one coalition government since they adopted AV in 1980 and in the UK we've had er... one coalition government since 1980. Maybe the political make up of the UK is different to Australia but AV itself doesn't necessarily mean coalition governments.

I got a pro AV leaflet today and I thought that was rubbish too, though it wasn't as bad as the no vote one. It was kind of obvious which campaign has the most money too, the no campaign was shiney, four times as big and in colour, the yes campaign was just a two colour bit of card.
Re: Alternative Voting - UK Referendum
Posted: Apr 24, 2011, 15:25:32
Quoted Reply
The debate got a little more interesting today with the leader of the Liberals, Nick Clegg, accusing the leader of the Conservatives, David Cameron, of aligning himself with "reactionary interests" by opposing electoral reform. Those "reactionary interests" include the Communist Party and the BNP (the anti immigration party of choice for racists), since it's only those two parties, the Conservatives and a few Labour MPs opposing AV. He also accused the No campaign of being based on "lies, misinformation and deciet". Hard to disagree with that having read the No campaigns leaflet and listened to some of the idiotic arguments and outright lies.

Another senior Liberal accused the Chancellor (guy in charge of the economy George Osbourne, Conservative) and others in the No campaign of telling "untruths". This is over claims by the No campaign and George that AV would require the purchase of new voting machines that would cost around £120 million. Given that the other countries that use AV don't use voting machines at all it is somewhat unclear as to why we would need them. Perhaps this a continuation of the "you are all to stupid to understand AV" argument, maybe they think the British public are incapable of writing numbers next to a candidates name without help, unlike the people of Papua New Guinea.

So the No campaign is probably going to find itself reported to the Electoral Commision that decides what is and what isn't allowed to be said during an election/referendum.

Confusingly the Yes campaign is saying that the BNP (who most people really don't like) will do worse under AV and the No campaign is saying they will do better. I've only seen one study done into the effects of AV on the BNPs ability to get elected. This was conducted in Burnley where the BNP recently narrowly won some seats in local council elections, it was a survey where people were asked who they voted for and then to order the candidates in order of preference. What the study found was that the numbers voting BNP would be roughly the same but those who voted for the other main parties ranked the BNP very lowly. When they applied the responses to the election results they found that the BNP would not have won a single seat under AV.
Last Edited: Apr 24, 2011, 15:27:39
Re: Alternative Voting - UK Referendum
Posted: May 5, 2011, 17:32:18
Quoted Reply
Voting was today and if opinion polls are to be believed the answer will be no to AV. Shame the debate was so pathetic when it's the only time in the history of our country that we've had a chance to voice our opinions on our democratic system.

Here's my favourite AV ad that was never used:

Re: Alternative Voting - UK Referendum
Posted: May 6, 2011, 19:14:13
Quoted Reply
AV got heavily defeated, roughly 70% against it.

Personally I think it's a shame as I thought it would give me greater political expression at the ballot box. It was also the first political campaign where people were allowed to just make stuff up, which is not a trend I want to see continue.

What will be interesting is how it effects the coalition government. You had a situation where coalition partners were accusing the other of lying, and they were. And you had the No campaign which was made up mostly of Conservatives deciding to use the leader of their coalition partners as a reason to vote no simply because he's unpopular.

I've seen a few senior Lib Dems saying this has caused a serious breakdown of trust between the two parties. There were also local council elections held at the same time and the Lib Dems suffered major losses. It's difficult to see this coalition lasting much longer as the Lib Dems will get wiped out at the next general election.
[1]
Forum Home > Non-Gaming > Real Politik > Alternative Voting - UK Referendum