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Arizona Shootings
Posted: Jan 9, 2011, 11:07:00
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As I'm sure most of you have heard, a gunman opened fire at a political meeting outside a grocery store. The apparent target was House Representative Gabrielle Giffords, who despite being shot through the head at point blank range, survived the attack and is now fighting for her life. She was one of 13 injured, 6 people including a 9 year old girl and a federal judge were killed in the attack.

The gunman's motivation is not yet known but he was described as mentally unstable and that would be consistant with the weird ramblings posted, apparently by him, in a few youtube videos.

It's a sad day for politics when a politician out meeting the people she represents is targeted in this manner. It's going to make a lot of politicians reconsider how they interact with the public, which is completely understandable, but if they spend less time with the people they represent then everyone ultimately loses out.

Sarah Palin, amongst others, is finding a lot of criticism directed at her due to the kind of language and imagery she has been using. One image in particular stands out, it's a map targetting House Democrats who supported the health care bill in Republican areas and used a rifle sight icon to mark them on a map:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/24/sarah-palins-pac-puts-gun_n_511433.html

Gabrielle Giffords made this sadly prophetic response to that image:

"Sarah Palin's list has a gun sight over our district. They have to realize there are consequences to that." Gabrielle Giffords, Nov 2010

Hopefully politicians will tone down their language as a result of this tradgedy, along with those in the media that seem to want to stir up hatred and fear.

I hope that those injured make a speedy recovery.
Re: Arizona Shootings
Posted: Jan 9, 2011, 11:52:52
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Being said its a risk every politician has faced since the beginning of politics itself, and you'll find most assailants have a mental or radical background, I don't really find it surprising. Its unfortunate and from what we're told seemed pretty unpreventable and impossible to predict. But I have more of a problem with this person causing harm not only to the congresswoman, the judge, and staff, people who may or may not have done things to create resentment, but to the bystanders, especially the children. For killing that 9 year old girl, Jared Loughner deserves the most severe punishment short of the death penalty, regardless of what his "mental state" is.

Its also unfortunate that it will either (give a reason for some politicians to avoid the public, or just scare them into submission). I feel though a lot of people are going to take advantage of the incident and it downright disgusts me. Also I'll throw it out there that Sara Palin is absolutely despicable, very rarely do you see somebody so fake and full of crap, and it astounds me just as much as to how so many people buy into it, a clear example of the sad direction America is headed in. The way she campaigns on propaganda, hate, and portraying everybody as anti-American makes me want to vomit.

UGH.
Re: Arizona Shootings
Posted: Jan 9, 2011, 15:07:34
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So I guess now wouldn't be a good time to mention that the Westboro Baptist Church are going to be protesting at the funerals of the victims and have produced a leaflet that is outrageous, vile and utterly disgusting even by their standards?

I'm not going to lay the blame at Sarah Palin's door or any of the other people who have turned American politics into such a divisive and confrontational issue. As far as we know it was just one lone maniac who was wandering around looking for the first big gathering of people to shoot at. However, there are suggestions that the may have been an accomplice and links to an anti semitic hate group, which may suggests the gunman was manipulated by others. If that is the case and the gunman is mentally ill, then the real criminals are still out there.
Last Edited: Jan 9, 2011, 15:12:37
Re: Arizona Shootings
Posted: Jan 11, 2011, 00:24:22
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In the midst of this unfortunate incident, my condolences go out to the family of the victims and those affected by this situation. But now isn't the time for people or politicians to point fingers at either side for blame. It is acknowledged that both Democrats and Republicans use fighting words and images in both of their campaigns. It would be foolish to rush to say that Sarah Palin is at fault for this. In the 1969 Supreme Court case Brandenburg v. Ohio, it was ruled that government cannot punish inflammatory speech unless it is directed to inciting and likely to incite imminent lawless action. Many politicians, not only Palin, have published inflammatory text and images. Any impartial judge would rule that imminent lawless action was not likely to be incited. Palin is far from the perfect politican out there, but she can't be held liable for the actions of a deranged individual acting on his own agenda.

The shooting was done by a mentally deranged invididual with ultra-left political ideologies. He was not a mainstream Democrat, Republican, tea partier, etc. He does not represent the vast majority of Americans. He is just a sick individual who is part of a beyond obscure minority. Currently, he's being held without bail in court, and his sentence will be either life in prison without possibility of parole, or the death penalty. It is certain he will be convicted of 6 first degree murders, assault with a firearm, attempted/premeditated murder (especially that of a public servant), and other counts that I probably forgot to mention. It's Arizona also, making it all but inevitable that Loughner will be put to death. As much as I wish that he would be made to suffer for every minute of life he stole from his victims, we are a nation of laws and we must observe them. Society shouldn't have to bear the costs of his imprisonment and this sick individual should be put to death for the common good of society.

Also, what sickens me is that many people and politicians are both directly and indirectly attempting to turn this tragedy into a political weapon. It truly goes to show how divided America is. We as a nation cannot hope to stand forever if a tragedy like this divides us so greatly. Now is the time for mourning of the victims, not the time to play political games.

As for the Westboro Baptist Church planning to picket the funerals of the victims, how low can these sick people get? It's almost as if they are competing to be the most famous real life trolls or something. It's pathetic how this travesty of a group calls themselves God fearing Christians when they so blatantly violate and reject Jesus Christ's teachings. Apparently, nothing is sacred in our society anymore. And it's sad how their speech is protected under the First Amendment. In my point of view, their arrests or deaths would do modern society a favor, because their uncivilized behavior and ideology does not have a place in a truly civilized society. I hope the proposed bill to protect funerals from protestors is passed, since the dead deserve their peace and the private mourning of their friends and family without intrudence from individuals with a sick pseudoreligious/political agenda.
Re: Arizona Shootings
Posted: Jan 13, 2011, 03:34:23
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I've not heard he was ultra left wing. The reports about links to an anti-semitic hate group turned out to be false, Fox reported that someone at the Department of Homeland Security had said he mentioned the group in some internet posts but when asked the DHS denied all knowledge of that. Since he's not talking I guess we will have to wait to find out the motive, assuming we ever find out.

To have a debate about the tone of political campaigning, discussion and reporting in the aftermath of this tragedy is perfectly reasonable. To try and assign direct blame, not so much.

Sarah Palin made a robust and er... interesting defence of the criticism levelled at her. Quoting Reagan "Acts of monstrous criminality stand on their own. They begin and end with the criminals who commit them," fair point. But she then went on to say "journalists and pundits should not manufacture a blood libel that serves only to incite the very hatred and violence they purport to condemn." So she should not be blamed for inciting violence and hatred because violence is the fault of those commiting it, but then blames the press and media for inciting violence and hatred. Sorry, that makes no sense.

The use of "blood libel" also caused controversy as it refers to "a religiously-charged phrase traditionally used to falsely accuse Jewish people of using the blood of babies to perform religious rituals." This was used as an excuse to persecute Jews hundreds of years ago. Perhaps not the best choice of words then. The timing of the release of her defence wasn't great either, coming just hours before a memorial service for the victims.
Re: Arizona Shootings
Posted: Jan 19, 2011, 10:11:43
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It is sad that Palin is a figure head for the conservatives...probably because she is easy to look at and doesn't look like a wrinkly old white guy. With that being said...What is really sad is the crazy liberal media is pointing blame at Palin. What intellectual cripple actually thinks she influences anyone to kill people? I guess we should blame the liberals for all of the church burnings and defacements...please..Really?...People as mentally unstable as that tool that shot everyone don't need any help being mental tools, they are already there. The "cross hairs" Palin used is a metaphor. Only the brain donors and whack jobs can't see that. The liberal media always tries to up its ratings by posting such obvious pandering. The conservative media does the same kind of things...they are both despicable IMO.

Did you see that they passed a law there about protesting funerals within 300 feet? Good for them! Those "church" people are as mental as the gunman. They obviously have no idea what it means to be a Christian....it is about love, not about hate. My heart goes out to those families of the victims. I was especially affected by the little girl. I have a daughter about that age and I would want blood. I would fully support a rule that lets the father have 15 minutes alone with that gunman. Let's get him on the fast track to the electic chair and do it over the net. It might not be right, but it would make me feel better to watch that guy fry.
Re: Arizona Shootings
Posted: Jan 19, 2011, 18:33:44
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Not living in the US it's difficult to keep up with exactly who and which media stations have been saying what about who is to blame. The Sheriff was very clear in linking what some had been saying with the effect that could have on someone mentally unstable, which is what the shooter appears to be.

I guess those linking the shooting directly to Palin or anyone else have looked at the kind of stuff being said, either at the time or in retrospect, and thought "that is the kind of thing that could make a crazy guy go kill some people". Then when crazy guy goes kills some people and it happens to include someone on a list with crosshairs over their district, then it's not a big jump to blaming those that were saying inflammitory stuff.

I happen to think they are wrong in this case. I actually agree with Dick Cheney about something, which both amazes and horrifies me at the same time:

"Well, I think we have to be a little bit careful here-- about a rush to judgment. Trying to explain the event when we don't really know everything we need to know in order to be able to make sort of a final judgment. There's a lot more I'd like to know about the man who was the perpetrator of this awful crime.
"In the meantime certainly there's nothing wrong with, and I wouldn't be critical about people who are saying, "Look, we need to be careful about our rhetoric. We need to treat one another with respect during the course of our political debates," and so forth. I think that's always good, sound advice."

I've been watching from the sidelines, but the tone of debate and the rhetoric used in the media and in politics seems to have gone seriously downhill during W. Bush's presidency. Maybe that's just because I didn't see or hear what had been going on before or it's at least partially due to a removal of legislation requiring certain media to be unbiased politically.

If I owned a news channel, I'd want to be biased. It means you know your market and you cater to them and you can even have two news channels catering to each side. Sadly the result is the people watching only get one side of anything and the "news" becomes less about reporting what has happening and explaining the issues and more about attacking the other side.
Re: Arizona Shootings
Posted: Jan 20, 2011, 10:16:03
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I think you hit it on the head with the news being skewed one way or the other network by network as the cause of the problem Phil. The people do tend to only watch the news outlets that they agree with. While I understand that shortsightness, I don't agree with it. How are you suppose to have an intelligent debate with someone if you don't even understand their point of view or know the facts or opinions that they base their view on? I believe that is why the debates always seem to degenerate into basically name calling. Liberals fall back on deducting 50 IQ points from anyone who doesn't think the way they do and consevatives think liberals are moral cripples. Neither is fully true. I believe that happens because they simply don't know enough about each other and are unwilling to look at each others view of things.

I actually listen to talk radio at work because I only like a small genre of music and it repeats too often. I listen to a station that has a liberal, but honest, big government type in the morning.....a libertarian conservative, small government guy in the afternoon and a duo of fun and right down the middle for the drive home. A well rounded set of information is critical to critical thinking.

Blaming something someone said used as a metaphor.....Phil is right, it is not a big jump....but it is only not a big jump for dishonest or ignorant people. If Bush had been shot, we would have had to blame 90% of the liberals and most of the media I guess for their words about him? If anyone doesn't agree with that last hypothetical fits this Palin scenario....your bias runs so deep that I don't hold out much hope for us.
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