the draft

[Streetbum]

I was gonna say for the love of god.. you cant really do that. :-D

[seroone]

The only fear i have of a draft is the hicks moving north.... i mean i couldnt handel it all you hear would be "Ey U der Wer's Da Closest MCD's I mean wat dus a guy got to du to get food rund here."

then the racial tentions would begin...... lol

[zelderexman]

oK, FIRST OF ALL, THERE IS NO CIVIL WAR!

Second I used the same sources as you two did (BTW: you only used 2 sources, I Showed you where you were wrong in both)

And yes it doesn't directly establish that people protesting the war will be punished, but that's still violating peoples rights.

These are people coming from other countries, THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS!!! (You get no rights unless you are a citizen)

Street With your Somalian Senario, We werent there for 4 years, it was like 2 days.

what you are trying to say is that if we deploy more people into iraq per say, we will kill ourselves?

No apparently you read that backwards, I am saying that with fewer people there will be more casualties. (Street got it but apparently you didn't Fury)

Also you are forgetting the fact that we are walking down the middle of streets, the insurgents are in houses taking pop-shots. (If you play CS or any other game like it, you should know, that will get you killed)

(Before you say that I am wrong, please do the absolute minimum, Read Sun Tzu (The Art of War)

Secondly, the Japs flew Zeros into Pearl Harbor. The Germans never produced Zeros, I'm pretty sure they pulled that one off on their own.

The Zero was made by Mistubishi, who got the designs for the engines from Germany. (But the Japanese actually made the planes) (The Japanese also had rocket planes, and human-guided bombs, which were sent to them from the Germans)

Sure, there will be more friendly casualties, which will get us out of there faster.

WTF! ARE U TALKING ABOUT (That makes no sence)

And you want to know what we are fighting for? Watch CNN or MSNBC for a week and you will see at least 10 hours of people talking about it. IRAN!!! We are still there because if we leave before Iraq is stable, and able to support and defend its self, then Iran will come in and take over, which would be even worse than Saddam.

You can't simply stop free trade, however wrong it may be people in this country still have a right, to say, make and sell arms to the terrorists.

Actually you can, It's call an embargo, there has been one on Cuba for the past 40 years.

Thirdly, just because Osama had access to money didn't mean he supplied it, source it please. I sourced you an article proving a point, and you rebuddled with information you just made up on the fly... sorry mate.

And I sourced you back to the exact same article and showed you where it says otherwise.

(Oh and)

We are the United States of America, arguably with one of the best trained militarys in the world. They are Iraqi insurgents and Al-Qaeda fighters, with little to no training, some being in their teens still. All other wars we have fought, they opposition has been if not as well trained as us, than very close. We suffered such high casualties because it was vicious raw combat in an open environment. Let me do this out in a loose mathematical sentence for you.

Cough, Cough, Vietman

I didnt even add in the difference in military technology. We have high powered rifles, an air force, and deadly accurate explosives (javelin missile system). They have little more than AKs, Snipers that arent dialed in, and RPGs. Our weapons are to their weapons as a PARA is to a Knife.

Ok, I see your point, but you didn't take into account our inability to use those things. U.S. forces have been given orders not to bomb or use missles in any of the cities. Why? Civilians. In past wars bombing whole cities, killing thousands of civilians, was acceptable, not anymore. If a civilian is killed by US forces, (Regardless of how it happened) Then the Military gets tons of bad publicity, and it turns people against the war. Where as, the insurgents can use what ever they want, kill who ever they want, and are not affected by civilian casualties. So it is more like having a PARA with no bullets to a knife.

You have to take into account we are not fighting the right way, we are trying to fight a conventional war, however they are fighting a gorilla war. (Again Vietnam)

[Streetbum]

This is going to be my last post in this thread that has anything to do with you. You have personal feelings of distaste towards me and that is fueling you to continue an argument that is feeble and unsupported. Seriously, no civil war? After saying something that dumb, you should have no right to post in the politics section ever again. Sunni vs. Shiite moron... Its the basis to this whole freaking insurgency. Ugh..

Secondly, you didn't show us anything, you pointed out the same thing I did and interpreted it the way you wanted to.

Seriously? Are you that dumb? Everyone in America has rights, citizen or not. An alien to this country has the same right to a trial as I do, the fact that you would think differently is just sad... And the fact that we were only in Somalia for about a week is insignificant, and it even proves my point. Less people are dying now, so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. Jesus...

If you're actually serious about comparing the war to counter strike in a serious and realistic manner, you're a moron. I invite you, even ASK of you to hop over to Ramadi and try to take "85 damage" from a grenade exploding at head level... You will be surprised.

Yes, the Germans gave the Japanese technology, but they didn't assist in Pearl Harbor, you have proven nothing. That is why that little "Declaration of War" you speak of didn't talk about the Germans, the Japs acted on their own there. And that same declaration of war wasn't meant to warn the USA about imminent attack, because that would just be plain dumb. "Uhm, yes, excuse-a-me. We are about to attack you, we just wanted to be-a-polite about it." So no, the Declaration was to make war final, not to give us a heads up.

You're right about Iran but I'm not saying we should pull out so I wont speak about that. Also, he was messing around about trading weapons to terrorists.. everyone knows you cant really do that. Plus, an embargo doesn't give the authority to seize properties once in its destination. You need a warrant for that.

Again, you're a moron, the Vietnam army was highly trained, as was the original Iraqi army we faced. They knew what they were doing. Think before you speak. Now we are facing insurgents, not trained soldiers.

We may not be able to bomb cities but we can damn sure use Javelins and Smart bombs to take out insurgency strongholds. It may not be all out bomb-rape, but a smart bomb can level a building with litle to know collateral damage. Plus our ground level guns out-match theirs so much that its almost sad. An AK is pretty much impossible to break, but that wood cant shoot like our steel.

Lastly, the topic of this whole thread is supposed to be the draft, so none of this proves anything to be honest. Nothing I said or you said. Just keep in mind that no matter what radical ignorants say or do, the men and women of this country can decide to not pursue the military. You can call them un-American and try to take away their rights but that makes you even worse than our enemies. They can call you ignorants, but that doesn't much help the troops.

Talking to actual members of the military you'll see a general consensus that
our volunteers army doesn't even want those people that don't want to join. If they don't want to be there, they don't have to be there. We want people that will put their whole hearts into fighting for this country. That is one of the reasons Vietnam was such a failure, because half the people there didn't want to be a part of it. I'm done on this topic because we fail to see each others points entirely and its going no where. May it please get back onto the topic of the draft?

[seroone]

Zelderman, You are becoming worked up and fustrated making your ability to accept other peoples OPINIONS about THE DRAFT wich you have oficialy taken off of its rout. Yes the Germans supplied Technology to the Japanese Why???? Because hitlers Axis pact was with Russia Japan Hungary Italy, Doesnt mean germany helped with pearl harbour. Germany had the americans declare war upon them AFTER the japanese attacked pearl harbour wich actually infact shocked hitler because he knew then that the Americans were going to invade. Second Where did Vietnam come into this?? the only person who has brought up Vietnam is Chieny in his talks with bush to stay in Iraq.


And the service that someone was talking about Germany is something like Deautchland Service du Travail Obligatoire

Here are links about WW2 as an FYI so you can actually type something down that is correct for a change.


http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_Powers

[zelderexman]

Street, you say I have a grudge against you, well so do you. and how can you say what my motives are?

I brought up vietman because of one reason, Insergentcy, during both wars we were fighting against an insurgentcy.

Also, I used Counter-Strike as an example becuase I assumed you knew the basic ideas of it, and you play it.

Seriously? Are you that dumb? Everyone in America has rights, citizen or not. An alien to this country has the same right to a trial as I do, the fact that you would think differently is just sad... And the fact that we were only in Somalia for about a week is insignificant, and it even proves my point. Less people are dying now, so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. Jesus...

Really? Wow I thought thats why we had Guantanimo.

And you say I have gotten away from the topic of the thread, but yet, I didn't start the arguement, you did street I make good points that anyone with half a brain who watches CNN or MSNBC would know. (Not FOX News, they are less liberal than the others, but alot of their news is kind of BS)

And you want to know something? You have both sited wikipedia, which is not a reliable source, Anyone who thinks they know about something can go one and put it there. Watch the History channel, they have stuff about this on all the time, and they get people who have been there and experts about the topic.


Also, (A few posts ago) you said that the US was the one who declared war in WW2. Well guess what? Wrong! You want a source, then here is a source to prove what is common knowledge. Japan, Italy, and Germany Declare War on the United States - World War II Multimedia Database

In the words of Billy joel, "We didn't start the Fire". You started argueing against my post, I think I have every right to defend what I post.

[Streetbum]

Think what you want, I already said I was done arguing.

[zelderexman]

I dont think anything, I KNOW!!!!!

[weaver]

The US didnt declare war in WWII - but we did enough, intentionally and under the cover, to get caught up in it. Roosevelt wanted in, could not convince the Isolationist republicans to go for it.. and so did enough stuff to guarantee to piss off the Germans.

-- Hence they sinking of our merchant vessels.

We dont need a draft. If we are going to spend the money on THAT - we can increase the salaries of our service men - now - and get more people to join based on the want to have a decent job. Seriously - what is the chance you are going to die in a war? 3000 dead in 6 years? Out of a standing army of 2.1 million and another 1.5 million reservists? .12% chance of dying per year.

[Trod315]

Unfourtinalty this is verry possbible to happen. And if it does i am most likley moving out of here.

[admin]

You should leave now, Trod.

[cpnichol]

I think you should be safe from the draft for a while yet, unless more wars start.

Warfare has changed since the First World War where more soldiers would be killed in one battle than there were troops used to invade Iraq.

[Atrus]

If the United State were engaged in a real war on terror I imagine a draft would be appropriate and even an acceptable condition for a majority of Americans. The most disturbing aspect of the current action in Iraq is that we are NOT fighting a real war. Now before all you necons get your panties in a twist let me describe what I consider to be a real war based on contemporary technology.

There was NO reason for any - not one American solider to have set foot in Iraq. Between the Air Force and the Navy (net centric warfare) the U.S., could bomb the Iraqi infrastructure to rubble returning that country to the stone age. Same with Iran should we need to manage their involvement. Why then did we invade? That too is obvious if you look at history. I won't go too deep here or get into Vietnam, but there too the war was based on the Pentagon's desire for extended and new contracts. How many of you know that the weapon systems we use today went into development during Vietnam? Most folks don't realize or understand that the Pentagon represents the largest most expensive socioeconomic organism in America. It must be fed and constantly upgraded regardless of whether we are at war or not. If we're not at war, and the Pentagon needs cash and wants new weapon systems - look out because they have always been able to find a way to get the cash they need. And no, 911 was a legitimate terrorist attack - coming at just the right time for the military war machine. They don't get that much cash for just missiles and bombs, but the real cash begins to roll in when the troops are in the mix where the acquisition of new troop based systems and the replacement existing arms and equipment are required.

My son at age 17 is Air Force jROTC. My family has a long heritage of service to this country. Do I want my son to enlist or be drafted when he graduates? No I don't, not unless our leaders begin to FIGHT a real WAR. After 911, I was so pissed off I was hoping Bush would simply turn sand to glass in the middle east, take their oil, and be done with it. Fortunately someone like me did not have their finger on the button. Cooler heads prevailed, but BUSH engaged in the WRONG war and type of warfare. Given today's technology there is NO reason for the U.S. to ever put troops on the ground again. Unless of course we engage in a humanitarian conflict in a third world nation where loss of infrastructure would not come into play. Darfor, for example. Another shinning example of compassionate conservatism? Another place where boots on the ground might be justified is where our real enemy is camped out, and that's not in Iraq according the latest NIE (National Intelligence Estimate) report.

What has happened to our country over the last five years will have repercussions for decades to come. All we've done in Iraq is create an opening for Iran, create a training camp for terrorists from around the world, borrowed a Trillion dollars from our good friends the Chinese, and oh yes - sacrificed over 3,000 brave young warriors for no legitimate reason. Your children's children will be paying for the Bush re-election war for many many years to come. And not just in taxes, but in a continuing flow of terrorists. And yes, Bush did use the war to get reelected. Remember all the terror alerts back in 2004 every time Kerry would bump up in the polls. A continuos series of alerts issued in the months leading up to the 2004 Presidential election - ZERO alerts reported after the election, until just recently. The nexus of politics and terror (YouTube - Countdown: The Nexus of Politics and Terror Part 2) practiced once again by an out of control power hungry administration.

And please don't pull out any of that BS about how we haven't been attacked here because we're fighting them over there. We have done NOTHING in Iraq that would prevent Al Quida from sending another 20 men over our open borders to blow something up. That is perhaps the biggest lie of all. Remember, the 911 (19) came to this country with legal visa's. We have no understanding of their timetables and likely never will. I suspect though that we will see another attack here in the homeland sometime after the next administration is in office. Bin Laden won't settle for the Democrats pulling out of Iraq when Bush has provided him with the biggest recruitment drive possible. American troops on Islamic soil is a blessing from Allah for Al Quida. They need us in Iraq, generations of new recruits for generations to come ready willing and able to give their lives in the holy war against the infidel Americans. Thank you Mr. Bush, and let's not forget - thank you Mr. Cheney... bucket heads.

Water treatment and desalinization plants, bridges, power stations, shipping docks and ports, government and military C3 (command control, communication) installations, railways, and food distribution systems are ALL targets of opportunity that could be taken out from the air with minimal collateral damage. Again, no troops on the ground required. How much of a threat would any middle east country be if the leadership could not communicate, commute, or feed and water their people? Bomb 'em, then wait six months and do it again. NO troops on the ground or Trillion Chinese dollars required - so, why are they there and not in the mountains between Afghanistan and Pakistan where out real enemy rests comfortably?

Welcome to the machine, its time to feed.

~A