Illegal Immigration (v2)

[Anon]

Since the old thread seemed to have died out in flaming racial commentary, I'm going to resurrect the immigration thread. This specifically applies to immigration in America and the current crisis we are facing.

I personally hate the massive surge of illegal immigration that we have had, and the disgusting level of support they have received from our own citizens within the country. Unskilled laborers with nothing to offer sneak in over our border, have 8 Catholic anchor children, then demand the rights of tax paying Johnny Q. American. Hell no. They've raped our economy and brought violence, narcotics, and their own troubles to a country that they aren't welcome in.

Post your opinions here.

[Titan]

Originally Posted by Anon

Since the old thread seemed to have died out in flaming racial commentary, I'm going to resurrect the immigration thread. This specifically applies to immigration in America and the current crisis we are facing.

I personally hate the massive surge of illegal immigration that we have had, and the disgusting level of support they have received from our own citizens within the country. Unskilled laborers with nothing to offer sneak in over our border, have 8 Catholic anchor children, then demand the rights of tax paying Johnny Q. American. Hell no. They've raped our economy and brought violence, narcotics, and their own troubles to a country that they aren't welcome in.

Post your opinions here.

Well, lets break this down here.

1. Those laborers are some of the hardest working people I have ever seen. All they wish to do is earn a living, and send some money back home to their impoverished families. They work *harder*, and for less money than many of our American counterparts. They have an extremely low "call in sick" rate, and one of the best attendance records. So much for nothing to offer.

2. Currently, the American woman bares an average of 1.93 children. At that rate, our population will begin to shrink over the years. The effect of immigration helps to balance that out and create a booming population, rather than a shortage, long term.

3. Accepting lower wages, and performing in industries that some of our nationals are unwilling to do, results in increases in productivity, and the lower wage scale results in lower costs to consumers for many goods and services.

4. Immigrants, both legal and illegal do not raise the rate of crime in the United States and native born Americans are five times more likely to be incarcerated than immigrants, as indicated by a Congressional study. I personally have never seen a Mexican serial killer, the majority of those arrested locally include people of various heritage, but barely Mexican, Haitian, Cuban and some of the higher percentage of immigrant heritages.

5. As far as the health issue goes, they often use emergency room services, even when there is no extreme emergency, thus contributing to an increase in certain areas of health cost to American consumers. Studies have shown however, that immigrants usually wind up paying more into the Healthcare system and they take out, as they tend to have a healthier diet, and less reasons to need healthcare.

6. The history of HIV/AIDS in the United States began in about 1969, when HIV likely entered the United States through a single infected immigrant from Haiti. Conversely, many new HIV infections in Mexico can be traced back to the United States. Researchers have found what is called the "healthy immigrant effect," in which immigrants in general tend to be healthier (mental health, healthy nutrition) than individuals born in the United States.


On a personal note, I don't mind immigration. Should the day come where we have more large scale issues to nationals, and the concept of immigration leans more towards the definition of an epidemic, I say welcome all. Unless you are Native American, your forefathers immigrated here as well. Consider yourself an immigrant of sorts also.

[Raven]

I'm going to watch this thread with interest.

I'm warning everyone that at the first sign of racial flaming i will deal with it rather harshly.

So, please, debate away but keep the flaming out of it.

Thank you.

Rob

[Alpha]

Originally Posted by Anon

They've raped our economy and brought violence, narcotics, and their own troubles to a country that they aren't welcome in.

Post your opinions here.

Thats quite a prejudice and stereotypical comment to make. Also, they ARE welcome, arent they?

In the first two posts we see both an 'against' and a 'for' topic of debate.
However, whether good or bad or right or wrong, there will always be contemporaneous postives and negatives, based on personal experience, opinions and facts.

Alpha x

[Anon]

Originally Posted by Titan

Well, lets break this down here.

Titan, you do not seem to have grasped what I am saying. They could be the hardest working people in this country, but they are illegal immigrants, the word ILLEGAL is even in the title. As for the labor they do, it is by and large unskilled ditch digging that could be done by most people. Immigrants who fall under "skilled" professions, I have no issues with, and the US makes their entrance much easier.

"They work *harder*, and for less money than many of our American counterparts." Therefore, lowering the minimum wage and fighting against work reforms with their desperation for money and a job.

As for your population argument, the United States can fill those spots with approved and beneficial members who have been approved by the United States government. Their children, no matter how many, are citizens by birth, and we pay for their education and benefits even though their illegal immigrant parents don't fully pay for ours.

Titan, I'm not sure where you grew up, but the majority of gangs consist of minorities seeking help from one another, then eventually evolve/devolve into crime and violence. I know in my high school that you tried to avoid fighting with a Hispanic kid because the majority of them belonged to a gang known as MS13, started by illegal El Salvadorians who banded together for security before turning to crime. MS13 is one of the largest and most organized immigrant gangs in the United States. If the immigrants are legal citizens of the United States, then by all means, go to jail, but the fact that my tax money goes to the incarceration of people who shouldn't legally be here is ridiculous.

I don't recall mentioning the spread of disease or HIV, but your point seems valid.

You seem to be addressing immigration as a whole, and I certainly encourage the immigration of hard working individuals, both skilled and unskilled, but ONLY if they abide by every law and pay every tax that a "native born" citizen of the United States does. America is known as the "mixing bowl," and as of late, that is easily become the "salad bowl" of a few prominent ethnic groups who refuse to assimilate and create their own culture that threatens to destroy the existing one.

My ancestors were "Native Canadian Americans" who came down from the Maine/Quebec area. They also came here legally, and have kept skilled jobs.

Next comment, please address the unwillingness to assimilate into American culture, and how Americans are making it easy to get by by sticking to their old culture instead of coming into our existing one. Also, the amount of money being sent to Latin America that is drained from our own economy. (And before you play the language card, I do speak Spanish to the degree of an outsider)

For those of you just joining us, take a look at ImmigrationCounter.com, and take a look at those statistics.

Originally Posted by alpha69

Thats quite a prejudice and stereotypical comment to make. Also, they ARE welcome, arent they?
Alpha x

I speak only through my own mouth (and by extension keyboard), so of course there is a bias, and that leans strongly towards the side of prejudice. I'd like to consider myself a "nativist" (to whatever degree I can possibly claim), as well as an avid isolationist and border sealer.

My opinion is solely mine, and I believe I have the right to express whatever my opinion is, no matter how prejudiced and seemingly ignorant or stupid it may be.

[Raven]

and I believe I have the right to express whatever my opinion is, no matter how prejudiced and seemingly ignorant or stupid it may be....

Unfortunately,

spawnpoint.com is a privately owned and funded organisation so whilst you do have a certain "free speech" there is no "constitution" or "freedom of speech" bill here.

The guys who pay the bills make the rules and we moderators enforce them

If this gets outta hand (right to free speech or not) I will finish it.

But at this moment.....carry on.......

Rob

[Titan]

I grew up in the Bronx. Lord knows I've seen my share of gangs. Never was in one, but I have seen the damage they have wrought at times. I don't blame it on any one heritage however.

Let us not forget the Italian Mafia, The Aryan Nation, Hells Angels, Black Panthers, Latin Kings, etc etc etc, the list goes on. They are responsible for murder, corruption, fraud, you name it. I don't see anyone calling for us to deport the Italians, Whites, Puerto Ricans, Blacks, or any other culture.

The minimum wage can never be lowered, by the way. Just because a few folks are willing to put in a hard days work for that minimum wage, gives us the right to complain? I think not.

By the way, a lot of immigrants do more than dig ditches ( another generalization ). The provide many services that some of our nationals are unwilling to do. I have seen them in Benihanas and Gashos ( traditional Asian cuisine ), wedding halls, mechanics, landscaping, construction, culinary, you name it. A lot of those illegal as well. I bet if I grew up impoverished and lacking major utilities, I would want a change as well. I would want to go to where I am being paid an honest days work.

I do agree that citizenship should follow shortly however. If they wish to profit by working here, they should become citizens within a certain amount of time.

In the long run, I have learned to take care of, and mind what is in my own back yard. Should it become an epidemic, as I described earlier, I would most certainly look forward to changes being implemented. Until that time, I am grateful for what I have, I take care of my family and my own, and applaud anyone looking to make a better life, without labeling the entire mass as a cancer. For me to do so, in my own eyes, would be generalistic, and prejudiced to a fault.

If you and yours are Native American ( American Indian ), then yes, your forefathers might not be considered immigrants. If you are any other race/culture, chances are likely your forefathers came to this country as an immigrant of some sort, and they were welcomed in.

BTW: ImmigrationCounter.Com returns as an invalid domain, available for purchase.

[Anon]

Well once again, you ignored some of the larger issues brought up. Please stop referring too legal immigrants in place of their illegal compatriots. I know many doctors, lawyers, and scientists who are immigrants, but they came to this country legally, so can anyone else.

The majority of said careers you mentioned fall under the category of "ditch digging," which means unskilled, or easily trained manual labor.

To claim that nationals will not do that work is absurd. While where I live, McDonalds is run by a large illegal populace, just 3 hours up the road, the same type of service is done by teenagers. To suggest that no one would do those jobs if the illegal immigrants didn't is just absurd.

As for the gangs, Aryan Nation is a bunch of bigots who formed their gang based on a common prejudice against various groups, the Hells Angels are a collection of people who share the common interest of biking. What those groups AREN'T are a bunch of people banding together in fear and then lashing out. The Italian Mafia are a product of our government and prohibition, driving the recent immigrants into the only career available, crime.

I'm all for change, but they can make that change in Mexico, Honduras, Canada, or wherever else they're coming from. They can even follow the EXISTING SYSTEM that we set up for said actions.


Also, Raven, you constantly reminding people of your moderator status once was enough, you have two posts with practically the same message. I invite you to join our debate, but I think we all got the message the first time.

[Anon]

My apologies, it was Immigration Counters.com - Live Data I must not have typed the S at the end.

[Titan]

I ignored none of the larger issues. I provided information regarding immigration from Congressional studies, and other venues. What I did not do, is generalize and base my information solely on my personal take of the situation. Hint hint.

What I saw, was an inflammatory, generalistic, prejudiced comment made initially.

I provided a different side of the immigration debate.

I also said "some of our nationals", as I have witnessed personally, many people complain about having to do manual labor to make a living. What me? I'm not working in a car wash! I'm not washing dishes! I'm not weedwacking all day! You know what? They will. For their families? They will. For a chance at a better life? They will. They don't cry about living 5-6 in close quarters, they are happy to just be here and working for what is to them, a decent wage. They don't boohoo over not having the latest technology, vehicles or gadgetry. They are happy to be here and working. I never said that no Americans are willing to work manual labor, as you indicated.

Now, I do remember also saying that they should become citizens shortly thereafter. Perhaps you missed that.

You brought up the gang issue, I showed you that native Americans are more likely to commit crime than immigrants at a 5:1 ratio, as per congressional studies. Gang theory out the window.

PS: Raven is doing his job of making sure that yet another political debate is not steered awry by closeminded immature individuals, who are not willing to see opposing viewpoints. So far this thread has not hit that threshold yet. He is well within his rights to state this, as I feel the same and may lock it down as well if any pointed attacks are made towards another user.

Yet.

[Anon]

I was hoping this could be a civil thread, unlike its predecessor.

I offered a website with data, you offered a statistic with no citation.

So, by your logic, a criminal who is content with his stolen loot should be left alone to enjoy it... simply because he worked hard to smash that window and grab that TV? Rubbish. They are in this country ILLEGALLY, ILLEGALLY, they are entitled to NOTHING. Regardless of their intentions, needs, status, and ethics, they are ILLEGAL immigrants, they entered ILLEGALLY, they should not be here. Neither they nor their offspring should receive the benefits of a registered immigrant simply because they managed to beat the system. That makes a mockery of law and order everywhere.

Titan, do consider that no where in my post have I claimed that the writing was anything other than my opinion on the situation through my experiences and through the experiences of other. My word is not law, do not treat it as such.

If said people complain about their jobs, then they can find new ones or go unemployed. America is not the land of happiness, it is a country built on sacrifice, no one is forcing them to work, eat, or live for that matter.

Most of your last post was just a lame attempt at insulting me and mocking my point of view. If you intend to moderate as such, then don't partake in debate because people don't always agree. If I am the ignorant, naive person that you claim I am, do feel free to prove that without the subtle name calling and insults. I kept my argument civil, and can respect me by doing the same.

If they want to be American citizens, then let them, we have an existing program for that. They can either do it the traditional way, or even serve in the military and earn their citizenship that way.

I would to hear your views on my previous question about the assimilation of immigrants into American culture.

[Anon]

Also, apologies for the double post, I didn't have that power until this current post, but how do you get off telling me to not call names while calling certain folk "closeminded immature individuals."

Four guesses says that didn't refer to you, Raven, or Alpha.

Also, "Now, I do remember also saying that they should become citizens shortly thereafter. Perhaps you missed that."

Oh, so you propose that we reward them for beating the system? Thats absurd. How can you defend giving people who have circumnavigated the law legal protection without them taking any action? That would completely destroy the existing system and encourage illegal immigration.

[Titan]

I kept the namecalling out of it. I made not one reference to you at all.

Don't make assumptions. My inference was to a certain thread about the French and Canada, two months ago, in which the individual in my opinion, was closeminded, immature, and inflamatory. Needless to say, based on his behavior, he is no longer a contributing member of Spawnpoint.

My citation is the Wikipedia on Illegal immigration. There are plenty of citations in that article at the bottom for you to peruse at your own leisure.

Your initial post was FAR from civil. Apparently a few other long term Spawnpoint members picked up on it as exhibited. It was borderline racism, hence the warning from Raven. I provided sound arguments that differed from your opinion.

I neither called you ignorant, nor naive. You quite obviously are looking for a fight, just as Tracer did months ago. If you wish to debate, keep an open mind, and keep the attitude out of it. You do your cause no justice by lashing out, rather than discussing.

I gave my opinions, and a site where my points can be read for all.

I no longer wish to debate, as it seems it is a fight you are looking for, and frankly, I have better things to do with my time, than waste it on this drivel. No wonder you went under an alias rather than use your real name. We know exactly who this is by the way as well, and I daresay I didn't expect much more than this after finding out.

Good day.